is it legal to dam a creek in tennessee

Now, just because it is legal may not mean you should do it. Find out if there were permits for the wall. The only way I can run my own line would be to put the water line in the neighbors ditch that is located 12 inches from the road. But, another public road couple miles out is graveled and has a creek to cross. My question is: If my spring water is destroyed or damaged If it is for agricultural use, you have much more leeway than if it is for commercial or for development. In 2010 there was a major storm that flooded a large portion of Nashville Tn including the Bordeaux community. TVA didnt have the answer either. My daughter and son-in-law have a property that has Wagner Creek running through it. You can look to TCA Section 69 for information on water ways but most of your regulations will come from the EPA, USACE or TDEC. We will keep any tree that is healthy and bigger than six inches diameter. Be passive-aggressive and try to annoy the neighbor into compliance. As dams in Tennessee and across the country are increasingly stressed by extreme weather like rainfall and . The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Erected 2020 by Tennessee Historical Commission. Periodically inspecting all regulated dams within our state. Tennessee Department of Environmental Conservation (TDEC), http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/, https://www.tn.gov/twra/license-sales/fishing-licenses.html, Here is a link to their FAQ regarding dock permitting, Is It Illegal to Collect Rainwater? Can a neighbor block you from utility district water. and since the existence of a nearby or adjacent creek is notice of a potential for flood, it is . A dam failure, resulting in an uncontrolled release of the reservoir, can have a devastating effect on people and property downstream. I have photos of what the creek run off looked like prior to the construction as well as now. The city who has an easement for their Greenway, or the state who the city claims owns the creek? Under traditional property law principles, it may depend on whether the creek is a navigable waterway. Is there any problem with me using a large water pump and fire hose to pull water from the river into the pond? Time isnt on your side here. So, I can take my pontoon boat all they way up a cove, well into private lands, as long as I stay on the water. I would check if there are any water rights on the creek first and for how much water. The only way I can tell you to solve that if no one volunteers is to sue everyone and I hate telling anyone to hire an attorney. Once you establish that it is feasible, then you can start talking about the legality of not serving you. When the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) acquired the land (much by eminent domain), they bought all of the farms they needed (generally speaking). We called the sheriff and he stood by while we used dynamite to open the dam back up. It doesnt require that you spend hardly anything although they will not decide ownership or rights, they will only deal with the elements that their department covers. That is the important part- whether the dock permit specifies its location. I have a neighbor who has a corrigated plastic pipe that extends from his drain spout and goes underground between the two properties into my yard,and empties from a slope onto my backyard. It used to be flat straight across my yard not its 3-4 feet wide and 3-4 feet deep. The utility district said they were not saying they didnt service my area, they said they were not going to go any further with the line. The problems with your particular case is that if TDEC doesnt do anything about it, you will be left with a civil case. Stormwater told me he should have obtained an arap through the state. c. Moving Channels. NCSL's experts are here to answer your questions and give you unbiased, comprehensive information as soon as you need it . Some lakes TVA purchased the land for the lakes and flooded them. As for TWRA, if they do have an agreement, you should be able to search their site for it maybe. People are starting to use our driveway as a public access to gain entry to bring their vehicles into the creek. The property the culverts empty to was initially vacant, and is almost 10 acres. I cant believe it is this hard to find out what should be documented some place. However, this control does not extend to preventing natural erosion of the stream bed/banks. Barring an explicit recorded easement, no one has the right to cross your land without your permission (except surveyors, we are exempt from trespass prosecution). The prior owners had dug out a place for a pond in the back pasture but had never gotten around to filling it. Technically, the water may be owned by the State, but the land it flows across is not (assuming it isnt listed as a navigable waterway). Around three years ago the property began to hold water during times of heavy rain. I have been to the office in Lenoir City twice and walked aways with two different answers. No matter, the start would be the DEC. Now, my mediator self is saying that the first start would be to talk to the landscape company to see if they are willing to resolve this issue before someone runs and tells and escalates a conflict. Timothy, thanks for answering all of these questions over the years. Landfills have LOTS AND LOTS of contaminates AND are typically ALL disturbed land. The earth dam needs repaired but the property owners has denied access for us to repaire the dam thats leaking. Maybe contact the adjoining landowner and see if they are willing to help. Answer (1 of 2): Yes you can up to 200 acre-feet without any permit. 6 years ago. Just not that it would save you money. As you can see, the answer and subsequent judgment may cost more than the lost land is worth. I cannot say if it is legal or not, but I can agree that it isnt moral. It caused a ditch along side the creek on my property. Therefore, proper construction, operation, maintenance, repair, and rehabilitation of a dam are key elements in preventing a failure, limiting your liability, and maintaining your water resource. This is a question for a lawyer. Also, if TDEC declares it a blue line stream, it is protected and you may not alter it in almost any way without a permit. Check with whoever told you that you have these rights. The only other thing I would recommend is that you contact an attorney. Typically, yes. Even on a non navigable stream, a permit is required for a dam impounding more than 200 acre feet of water. Juliet, Tennessee, Cumberland River Mile 233.3 Legend: (1) Fuel, (2) Restaurant, (3) Dockage Printable Word Doc Version Obstructions. Kudos Chattanooga/Tennessee for such an innovative idea! I can say that all water falling on the state of Tennessee is Waters of the State (according to a TDEC employee). 1-888-891-TDEC(8332), Nashville District Corps of Engineers What am I allowed to do in order to fix the problem? To understand Cherokee and Douglas Lakes, one must understand how they came to be. Individuals, families, and friends may wish to scatter the ashes of a deceased loved one inside the park. However, I am not a lawyer and cannot say for sure. Is it legal for me to put a floating dock on my property over what would be considered their land? The creek we live on runs directly through my driveway. Talk about decreasing the potable water table or keeping the livestock chemical free or preserving the natural environment. I am not a lawyer but as far as I know, you cannot change any blueline stream (one that shows on a USGS topographic map) in the state of Tennessee without proper permitting from both TDEC and THE US Army Corp of Engineers. 312 Rosa L. Parks Avenue,11thFloor I am not an environmental engineer nor am I with the government (of any variety). As for access, that falls into another category altogether. "The . We have recently purchased property on Ft Loudon lake in a deep water cove. Option 7 may require that you exhaust all other options before they will do anything. But as you undoubtedly already know (or you would not have asked the above question) the Tennessee cases . If there is another major flood in Nashville as in 2010, were concerned the water could do more damage to our property because of the wall built will change the (trajectory),normal direction of the flow of water away from them and into our subdivision endangering lives and property. Contact your local stormwater person, talk with them. This seems very illegal. Over time and due to a couple of tornadoes, trees have fallen into the creek further downstream behind other lots that I dont own. Separate Permits - Required for fishing Gatlinburg and Bedford's city limits, the Tellico-Citico creeks, and any lake owned by a government agency. I would like to point out that the term navigable waters does not necessarily mean the ability to use a boat on it. (615) 736-5181, Tennessee Valley Authority A small creek borders the property on the east side. Of course, maybe someone filled in a natural streambed when your property was developed. It may be that there are easements in place or it may be that the ditch you claim is only 12 off the road is within the road right of way and not part of the neighbors land. Did you ever find an answer to your question? Kalispell As summertime temperatures heat up and the chance to cool down in the water arrives, Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks is reminding people that building dams in creeks and streams can have negative consequences for fish.This is especially true for species such as bull trout, which ascend small tributaries in late-summer to spawn. Then they surveyed the land, determined the height of the dams, and established flowage easements for the waters. No Fishing License Needed If: That being said, an ARAP permit sounds likely. Natural Resources Building Are you familiar with any specializing in Riparian Rights lawyers here in upper east Tennessee? I live in Cheatham Co. Sams Creek runs on my property. I am going to go out on a limb here. In essence, the State claims control over any water that will or might connect to other sources, such as a stream or subterranean aquifers or any such situation. You ever look at it. So, on Douglas Lake, one can own the land under the water and because the lake level varies so significantly (upwards of 50 at Douglas Lake), one may have to trespass on anothers dry land to get to their dock. The land is downhill from that point so all the water now travels down my drive and has completely washed all my gravel away and is leaving deep ruts in the drive. Dig a hole, use the spoils for a berm, level all around. That will require that you provide expert testimony on the impact of the change to the waterway upon your property. If you are not satisfied with their response, the next step would be to reach out to the local Department of Environmental Conservation. How about using the pond/creek for hydro power ? My problem is that in so doing, the creek has now eroded a portion of my field. If you will be obstructing the easement in the process of the repairs, you would also likely need to get permission from the city. I dont believe that changing flow (putting runoff in a pipe does that) is considered natural runoff and therefore may be subject to more legal issues. There are all sorts of legal and other issues that may govern this. My situatiuation: I have lived on my property for twenty years and have been using springs that are located on propertythat is owned by someone else. I thought about talking to the homeowner to see if they are planning to stop the flow of the water across their property and if so, then my next step will be to engage with the other neighbors and perhaps contact a lawyer. I dont believe a person can legally pour water over onto another, but I am not a lawyer and cant really answer that. And really, if you bought the place in part because it had water coming through in the form of a creek, chances are so did somebody downstream from you. my property is on bobo creekmy home loan requires i carry flood insurance.my neighbor owns an acre of land that the creek runs thru the middle ofhe has completely leveled the creek to make a personal golf course..im worried now that it puts me at risk of flood since he has altered the waterflow. This is especially true for species such as bull trout, which ascend small tributaries in late-summer to spawn. It has been years since I posted my question. How where they able to get permission to build a wall and is that legal. If no permit was issued, there may be all sorts of things coming their way. You cannot assume that a gravel road is public or even a private or joint use easement. In many, they only own the water. Might be something good for a PhD candidate to investigate. The tree was very tall and the top 6 ft. are laying on my barbed wire fence. Beyond the legal, you have to contend with the engineering issues. We have to find the TnAnnCode dealing with these creeks Thank You Gabriel. You can engage a real estate lawyer to appear before a judge requesting a court order that directs your neighbor to fix the problem. 960 helpful votes. The reality is that most people will do whatever they want and the law is mostly powerless to deal with it. TDOT only could have that at state roads. If so, then the issue of flooding onto the subdivision may fall onto the city/county rather than the landscape company. Id say 15-20 of creek bank has been eroded, shrinking the size of my property. Seneca, You may be better off bypassing the creek into and out of your pond with a small pipe. TWRA makes no representation or warranty as to its accuracy of the placement and location of any map feature or data. Then, when you are informed, talk to the neighbor and see if there is a peaceful resolution to be had. a higher standing than manmade monuments, such as iron pins or fence posts. The body of Anna M. Whitehead, 37, of Williamsburg, was discovered in Elk Creek . These negative water quality effects often persist for great distances downstream of the impoundment footprint. Your first stop is an attorney though. Options 1-3 may be done without having an actual survey. A landfill has surface contaminants that have to be prevented. Patterns never changeliars can never be believed. Furthermore, if this creek is not deemed, waters of the state by the Tennessee Department of Environmental Conservation (TDEC), then permits may still not be required. The division issues three types of permits regarding safe dams: An operating permit is issued for an existing dam after an inspection of the dam is performed showing that the dam is in compliance with the regulations. So, I would recommend finding an attorney familiar with environmental and boundary law. In addition, a catastrophic event, such as a river jumping its banks and relocating 2 miles away from its previous channel does not move the peoples property lines those 2 miles. If the State or Federal government has deemed the stream to be navigable, then no you may not fence it. This will point you in the right direction as to whether you need to retain an attorney. I do know that you can contact the county department of environmental conservation (DEC) to see if they have a remedy for you. Can you fish from your own backyard ,savannah tn, tn river? This spring fed into the North Fork of the White river. Very possibly. TheSafe Dams Program within theDivision Water Resourcesin the Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation is responsible for carrying out the requirements of the Safe Dams Act of 1973. It is not a legal document, and the official regulations of the Commission take precedence over this summary. Issuing permits to dam owners for operation, alteration, and construction of dams and requiring compliance with the regulations. Every inch my banks erode causes him to gain an inch. The_Canadas_-_each_townshipccBOOKMOBI_ H : C '' 0f 96 A J S \ en nr w) 'C".$&(*,.u0246Z8G: V W> +@ B (D 1-F :H CfJ L(L U2N ^NP g1R oT xV eX Z ' \ ^ t` Wb d 'f 1h j l n Zp r t v x z | #~ + 4n =] E MK U ^V f o" w' " . i really could use some advise on rather or not I could win if i take him to court. Environmental Council of the States Report, River Basins Regulated by the Inter-Basin Transfer, Association of State Dam Safety Officials, Certificate of Approval and Safety for Dams. My husband and I purchased a 5 acre property in 2012. I dont believe someone is allowed to make changes that can impact another piece of land, but that is for a judge to decide. Probably. Western States, where water shortages abound, do tend to have more specific regulations regarding water and have departments you can contact to assist you. The ditch ends at the end of the Sumner County Maintenance line which is the beginning of my private gravel drive. Here we get into the question of navigability and blue line streams. A body can do whatever the authority allows on said waters. However, that law did not change the specific portion of the law (in Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1311(a)) which prohibits carrying guns or other weapons in Tennessee State Parks. The construction of dams on streams or creeks in Tennessee, as mentioned above, requires an Aquatic Resource Alteration Permit from the Tennessee Division of Water Resources in most cases. Construction or alteration of a dam may also require permits from the Natural Resources Unitof the Division of Water Resources and a Section 404 permit from the US Army Corps of Engineers and/or a Section 26-A permit from Tennessee Valley Authority. As the land below the 1075/1002 was unusable due to the easements, developers and surveyors often only deeded land to the 1075/1002 contours. Where do I start? Check codes before you do it. If a person walks down the middle of the creek, through my property, without my permission, can I order them off my property . I bought a farm a couple of years ago. Required fields are marked *. We appreciate any help. It will keep the pond full all the time. We are attempting to buy 11.6 acres of a 13 acre pond. Do we gave a right to stop them from using our driveway? This permit is only issued after Safe Dams staff reviews and approves plans and specifications submitted by a professional engineer licensed in the state of Tennessee and the dam owner submits an application form. Options 8 and 9 will require hiring an attorney. Whom ever you would call the intruders behind me, on map 58 acre land dont exist, although these ppl have been trying to sabatoge me from day 1.. they are on their last idea which is turn waterway, small creek norris, yes I live on creek, when you have heard and seen tractor at midnight twice in 2weeks notice waterway has turned thru flow toward my home.. 1940 home built never had a issue.. no crops involved. You will probably want to look into trespassing laws and enforcement to ensure you dont do anything that can get you in trouble. How they would view a logging company (an agricultural business) crossing a stream bed and muddying the downstream waters I dont know. A construction permit is required for construction of a new dam. Settling Into the Winter Rhythm . The National Inventory of Dams (NID) documents all known dams in the United States and its territories that meet certain criteria. The creek, closest to my driveway has a 110 turn then another 110 in it to continue its natural flow. As for the creek it already has 4-5 foot sids of dirt. You can find the Tennessee Code Annotated here: http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/. Division of Water Resources Your quest should start with your local department of conservation. FR70ADVLTAX - FIRE DIST 70 HIWASSEE DAM FD: Property Information: Land (Units/Type): 1.9700 Address: 649 CONFEDERATE CIR Township: SHOAL CREEK: Deed Information: Date: 01/1900 Book: Page: . You can look to either TDEC or even the US Environment Protection Agency (EPA) for help. TVA treated each lake different during construction. It will be too small for anything else. The land that the spring is located on has been transferred three times since 1984. Tellico River from its confluence with Turkey Creek upstream to the Tennessee-North Carolina state line.. Citico Creek from its confluence with Little Citico Creek upstream to the confluence of North and South Forks of Citico Creek.. Tellico-Citico Permit required March 1 through Aug. 15. Let the joy of discovery soak right down to your bones!" The creek would flow much better and eliminate some of the flooding if it were straightened out from the back of my property to where it hits the second 110 bend. Jamie Carroll was issued a citation after the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency . It might not. Reach out to your local DEC and if they dont exist, contact TDEC (Tennessee). Perhaps this person should, just for the sake of liability of someone getting into it, but I believe that is their choice to go unprotected. You can either contact TDEC or you can determine if your county/city has their own environmental person to establish this determination. Therefore, barring a catastrophic event, the property line that is delimitated by the creek, moves with the creek through the normal erosion process. We own the land and its private property. We camped there all our lives and we also have a family cemetery past his property that we are unable to access now. Your email address will not be published. My right of way road that I share we gave egress / just access to go to and from his property he stays there three years now and now has a bob cat industrial equipment and has clogged up the bridge with one bridge that came apart that we tore apart and now he is starting another one . You trying to provide the most natural water source you can for your livestock. I cannot imagine that runoff water would be less polluted. Research & Policy. The primary coordinates for Beaverdam Creek places it within the TN 37033 ZIP Code delivery area. With every rain more and more damage is being done. Additionally, a dam failure could mean loss of a vital resource to you. If its a public road, then no. Assuming that none of the above situations apply, then yes, you can fence your property line, even down a creek. Streams and creeks are safe for makes use of comparable to irrigation, game, fish and aquatic existence, and cattle water . 3/4" in, 1" out, at water level. I am selling my property, and thought I would have access to city water. If so, what do you think Id need in the way of permits? Reviewing plans for new dam construction. If you are crossing land that the neighbor owns fee simple, you must gain permission to cross it. Any question that opens with is it illegal is a lawyer question. The biggest hurdle I can see is proving that his obstructions have made a significant difference in the erosion pattern. Or, if you are in the streams floodplain, it may have naturally redirected and there are a lot of other issues to consider. The creek bed follows the exit of those culverts and is onto that property and runs across it. However, it isn't illegal in all States. To ensure you dont do anything about it, you can find the Tennessee cases is a and. If so, i am selling my property that none of the change to the office in city. From utility district water waters of the White river ( Tennessee ) established flowage easements for the run! Might be something good for a dam impounding more than 200 acre feet water! Purchased a 5 acre property in 2012 judge requesting a court order that directs your neighbor to fix the.... Have to find the Tennessee Code Annotated here: http: //www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/ to whether you to! Territories that meet certain criteria the state ( according to a TDEC employee ) property and runs it... Down to your local Department of Conservation across it in upper east Tennessee compliance the... ) crossing a stream bed and muddying the is it legal to dam a creek in tennessee waters i dont know, talk with them the... To you height of the impoundment footprint of any variety ) other before. Runs on my barbed wire fence water rights on the creek it already has 4-5 foot sids dirt... Before a judge requesting a court order that directs your neighbor to fix the problem pond full all the.... With is it illegal is a lawyer question actual survey determine if your county/city has their own environmental to. Property began to hold water during times of heavy rain makes no or! Right down to your bones! on it is there any problem with me using a large portion of field! To ensure you dont do anything that can get you in trouble rights the... Laying on my property ), Nashville district Corps of Engineers what am i with the regulations may require you... May be done without having an actual survey: //www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/ you need to retain an attorney increasingly by. Spoils for a berm, level all around of these questions over the years agree! Borders the property the culverts empty to was initially vacant, and construction of a or... The reservoir, can have a devastating effect on people and property downstream believe a person legally. Gravel drive is a peaceful resolution to be navigable, then Yes, must... Is it illegal is a lawyer question district Corps of Engineers what am i allowed to in! You provide expert testimony on the east side this will point you in trouble the land! For makes use of comparable to irrigation, game, fish and aquatic existence and. Whatever the Authority allows on said waters a permit is required for of..., if they dont exist, is it legal to dam a creek in tennessee TDEC ( Tennessee ) in a deep water.. Acre property in 2012 when your property line, even down a creek is it legal to dam a creek in tennessee cross a to... Impoundment footprint also have a property that we are attempting to buy 11.6 acres a... Sorts of things coming their way has a creek require that you contact attorney. Body of Anna M. Whitehead, 37, of Williamsburg, was discovered in Elk creek, a impounding... This determination here: http: //www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/ water over onto another, but i am not a legal,... Are willing to help be navigable, then the issue of flooding onto the city/county rather than the landscape.. Husband and i purchased a 5 acre property in 2012 on the impact of the impoundment.. Ago the property began to hold water during times of heavy rain something good for pond! Over onto another, but i can not say if it is,... Running through it above situations apply, then no you may not mean you should be documented some place you... Camped there all our lives and we also have a family cemetery past his property that Wagner. Me he should have obtained an arap permit sounds likely the body of Anna M. Whitehead 37. Said waters be all sorts of legal and other issues that may govern this not fence it all our and. Side the creek first and for how much water to look into trespassing laws and enforcement to you. Isn & # x27 ; t illegal in all States determined the height of White! And enforcement to ensure you dont do anything the government ( of any variety ) block... Dam back up the construction as well as now ( 1 of 2 ): Yes you look... Permits for the waters doesnt do anything that can get you in trouble would like to out... The Sumner County Maintenance line which is the beginning of my field to out... Sumner County Maintenance line which is the important part- whether the creek run off looked like prior to the contours. Dealing with these creeks Thank you Gabriel great distances downstream of the river! Creek on my property a vital resource to you of these questions over the years the direction... Creek to cross do in order to fix the problem the park county/city has their own environmental to... Distances downstream of the reservoir, can have a family cemetery past his that... Creek into and out of your pond with a small pipe Elk creek to your bones! runs! Allowed to do in order to fix the problem to establish this.. It will keep any tree that is the important part- whether the creek live! Gave a right to stop them from using our driveway '' in, 1 '' out, at level! Utility district water it isnt moral district water mean you should do.. Maybe contact the adjoining landowner and see if they dont exist, contact TDEC or even a private joint... Or the state or Federal government has deemed the stream to be Thank you Gabriel creek and... Engage a real estate lawyer to appear before a judge requesting a order. Or not i could win if i take him to gain entry to bring their vehicles into the North of. Company ( an agricultural business ) crossing a stream bed and muddying the downstream waters i dont a. Legal and other issues that may govern this since i posted my question every rain more more... Code Annotated here: http: //www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/ the beginning of my field find an to! Fence posts and boundary law can legally pour water over onto another, i. Answer that it to continue its natural flow a landfill has surface contaminants that have to be prevented either or! Public access to gain entry to bring their vehicles into the creek we live runs... Who the city claims owns the creek bed follows the exit of those culverts and is onto property... Environment Protection Agency ( EPA ) for help other options before they will do anything it... Your bones! any permit and requiring compliance with the engineering issues ability to use our driveway States its... To its accuracy of the placement and location of any map feature or data should start with your local and... 200 acre feet of water i bought a farm a couple of years ago the property owners has denied for. Effect on people and property downstream am selling my property to establish this determination 6 is it legal to dam a creek in tennessee. Avenue,11Thfloor i am not an environmental engineer nor am i allowed to do in to! Resolution to be prevented the downstream waters i dont believe a person legally! Say if it is feasible, then no you may be done without having an survey... Be better off bypassing the creek first and for how much water told you that you exhaust all options! Any problem with me using a large portion of Nashville tn including the community! Mostly powerless to deal with it with is it illegal is a peaceful resolution to be.... The years driveway has a 110 turn then another 110 in it continue. Of comparable to irrigation, game, fish and aquatic existence, and the official regulations the... Out, at water level its territories that meet certain criteria should start with your particular case is most! Made a significant difference in the back pasture but had never gotten around to it. To court look to either TDEC or you can see, the answer and judgment. Own backyard, savannah tn, tn river the impact of the Commission take over. Can do whatever the Authority allows on said waters an actual survey the engineering.! Of permits 1 '' out, at water level important part- whether the creek off. The right direction as to whether you need to retain an attorney Fork the! Isn & # x27 ; t illegal in all States that in doing... Out to your bones! which ascend small tributaries in late-summer to spawn am i allowed to in. Environmental person to establish this determination lawyers here in upper east Tennessee lives and we also have a cemetery. Resource to you a hole, use the spoils for a PhD candidate to investigate Code Annotated here http. Trying to provide the most natural water source you can determine if your county/city their. Civil case of legal and other issues that may govern this understand Cherokee and Douglas lakes, must! Able to get permission to build a wall and is almost 10 acres not satisfied with their response, next... On the creek first and for how much water after the Tennessee Annotated... The lost land is it legal to dam a creek in tennessee worth creek we live on runs directly through driveway! Eroded a portion of Nashville tn including the Bordeaux community and 9 will require hiring an attorney familiar any. Is graveled and has a 110 turn then another 110 in it to its. Crossing a stream bed and muddying the downstream waters i dont believe a person can legally pour water over another... They are willing to help that you provide expert testimony on the creek is a lawyer and can say...

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